tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post873555046897098980..comments2023-12-21T23:44:40.324+13:00Comments on Maui Street: The Urewera sentence and the reaction from MaoriMorgan Godferyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-82459232124161052712012-06-06T13:34:12.486+12:002012-06-06T13:34:12.486+12:00You are quite correct in saying I have little or n...You are quite correct in saying I have little or no background knowledge about unlawful possession of weapons jury trials. What is the range of sentences for straight weapons convictions, and what would be the range of sentences for statements of intention to kill, or statements of intention to drive farmers off their farms?Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-16850680559159833142012-06-05T22:03:21.754+12:002012-06-05T22:03:21.754+12:00There was never any disagreement around the notion...There was never any disagreement around the notion that if you commit a crime you should be punished for it. The issue is the degree of punishment. The Judge imputed intention. He endorsed the Crown's construction of events and sentenced them accordingly. The Judge can, of course, make findings of fact even though the jury did not make such a finding of fact. However, it is incredibly rare and poor practice for a Judge to make such a controversial finding in what is a very complex case. In most cases the sentencing Judge would accept the findings of fact from the jury and not make any personal inferences. <br /><br />Iti and Kemara were given harsh sentences. Sentences without precedent and ones that will, it is widely accepted, be reduced. <br /><br />Your comments are not going to change my opinion and I find it curious that you feel the need to justify the sentences having obviously come here with little to no background knowledge.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-39478602920921467382012-06-05T21:39:59.065+12:002012-06-05T21:39:59.065+12:00OK, back to the Urewera 4. Justice Rodney Hansen s...OK, back to the Urewera 4. Justice Rodney Hansen said, in paragraph 11 of his sentencing notes, that he was satisfied that the Crown had advanced its case on the basis anticipated by the Supreme Court. He cited the opening Crown statement that the training exercises were to equip them to "kidnap people, to commit acts of sabotage, and commit basically armed combat. He noted that "a finding that the commission of further serious offences of violence was indeed the overall objective was open to the jury on the evidence". Justice Hansen did not retry Tame Iti and Rangi Kemara on sentencing as Hone Harawira alleged. I find it curious that you feel the need to explain away Kemara's statements about killing whites to get used to killing etc as out-of-context throwaway statements. Why do you feel the need to defend them? Many out there in the blogosphere see the issue more clearly that you, and they don't have to study law to be able to grasp the fact that if you do the crime, you do the time. These were not comments from pakeha.Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-60144690902391827012012-06-05T20:51:26.568+12:002012-06-05T20:51:26.568+12:00I have cited the evidence, evidence you have no in...I have cited the evidence, evidence you have no interest in obviously. If you want to cite evidence or put forward a compelling case then good. At the moment, you have no authority. In fact, you have no point at all. I hope you take a look at those papers and others. It might give you a better shot at life.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-18685771561843730032012-06-05T20:42:52.603+12:002012-06-05T20:42:52.603+12:00Ok, that tells me what I wanted to know. You don&#...Ok, that tells me what I wanted to know. You don't know the answers, and rather than admit it, you are now resorting to your usual tactic of abuse. Morgan I really hope you obtain an enquiring mind, and do not spend the rest of your life just believing everything you are told, especially if it fits with what you want to believe. The world is a much richer place than that. I had hoped to teach you some small thing or two. Humility would be a good start.<br />On one thing you are right - I do have a life and much better things to do than try and crow bar open your narrow and closed mind.Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-14226064592361513292012-06-05T18:26:56.270+12:002012-06-05T18:26:56.270+12:00Why not read those papers. They are, considering t...Why not read those papers. They are, considering they are the result of years of research, far better put than I could in a few minutes here with you. Do you want to learn, or is your issue with "me". I suspect your issue is not with the ideas because there is zero chance you could engage with and negate the ideas contained in those papers on Maori law. Pitiful really that you hide under a cloak on the internet and only want to engage in a personal debate with "me". Do you not have anything better to do? Like having a life?Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-20577074343456902422012-06-05T17:55:57.136+12:002012-06-05T17:55:57.136+12:00Because Morgan, my debate is with you, not the wri...Because Morgan, my debate is with you, not the writers of the papers, and I am trying to establish, for my own reasons, your level of knowledge of this subject. I want the answers in your words, not theirs.Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-21728753564828650652012-06-05T17:30:09.318+12:002012-06-05T17:30:09.318+12:00Rather than have me explain this to you, why don&#...Rather than have me explain this to you, why don't you access the above papers I have cited. They're easy to access.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-36157624319617830452012-06-05T17:24:09.477+12:002012-06-05T17:24:09.477+12:00Can you tell me Morgan, was this legal system obse...Can you tell me Morgan, was this legal system observed by all tribes. I mean, did the same laws and hara apply to all tribes, or did they each have their own set of laws and hara?<br />I'd also like to know what they called it before they knew any English words. What was this legal system and governing concept called? How did it operate in a time when tribes were waring with each other?Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-42232111476086125572012-06-05T16:37:11.610+12:002012-06-05T16:37:11.610+12:00As this discussion progresses, you keep changing y...As this discussion progresses, you keep changing your propositions. First you tried to point to a double standard saying that I and other Maori defending the Urewera four would not be doing so if the defendants were Pakeha. When I made it clear that I would view the case through the same lens if the defendants were Pakeha you steered the discussion towards an isolated comment from one of the defendants. When it became clear you had not read the cases nor the alternative submissions this became a conversation about Maori history, Maori law and the intentions of the rangatira who signed the Treaty and the musket wars pre-1840. I am not interested in these debates at the moment. This was a post about the Urewera four, and it would be better to keep it that way. Please do not put words in my mouth too.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-70955043434007342752012-06-05T16:26:24.734+12:002012-06-05T16:26:24.734+12:00Therefore, we agree that the inter-tribal wars, ca...Therefore, we agree that the inter-tribal wars, cannibalism, and slavery largely ended, from 1840, with British settlement.Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-87063197125393434872012-06-05T14:43:03.779+12:002012-06-05T14:43:03.779+12:00That is what research is. One evaluates sources an...That is what research is. One evaluates sources and draws conclusions. In the case of the conclusions of Justice Willaims and Durie and Moana Jackson their conclusions have been thoroughly critiqued and peer reviewed which lends further credibility to their conclusions. Would you rather have reference to source documents or oral traditions from Maori? Surely those sources, without viewing in context, are less reliable than the conclusions of three leading authorities on the matter. It is not only my opinion that Justice Williams, Justice Durie and Moana Jackson are leading legal minds, it is the opinion of much of the legal profession. Hence Justice Williams is largely tipped to become Chief Justice within this decade. Justice Durie is also held in the highest regard in the judiciary and the legal profession. <br /><br />I hold that their opinions disprove the opinions of those who hold otherwise. In other words the opinions of those who refuse to acknowledge the existence of a Maori legal system. If you care to read Williams, Durie and Jackson’s findings you will see there is compelling evidence supporting the existence of a Maori legal system. A legal system that western constructs can recognise and a legal system that is rooted in tikanga Maori. <br /><br />Mike, I see what you are getting at. No system of law is perfect. Our present legal system does not stop murders, nor do other western legal systems stop wars. The law, no matter what form it takes, often fails and is subject to human whims and irrationality. For example, even though international law is recognised and widely observed, it does not stop war crimes and atrocities from Iraq to Bosnia.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-80990608236111919352012-06-05T14:26:23.740+12:002012-06-05T14:26:23.740+12:00Very good Morgan. However I don't recall Mike ...Very good Morgan. However I don't recall Mike claiming he knew better than anyone. That aside, all the sources you have stated are alive and well today. Therefore, they have based their opinions on either their own research or learning of other peoples research and have made their own assumptions and conclusions, just as you are doing. I would find it much more convincing if you could point to some proof from the early 1800s yourself. Something that has not already been tainted with today's biases or interpretations.<br />As to your assertion that the gentlemen you reference are leading legal minds, that is your opinion. They are three out of the 35 High Court Judges and Nine Associate Judges. All three are part Maori and while I don't doubt their credentials at all, they will all naturally have a bias towards things Maori. Their legal backgrounds will also incline them to interpret past lore, as you put it, using the legal knowledge and terminology of today. That's fine. They are entitled to their own opinions. That does not negate the opinions of others who may have made different interpretations based on their own studies, knowledge and perceptions. Their opinions are just as valid. Not wrong, just different.<br />As for my 'pathetic prejudice' - that is you pre-judging me. You don't know me Morgan. I have quite a few part maori in my family and I love them dearly. My dislike for Tame Iti and co is because of their actions and attitudes, not because they are maori. They are a blight on New Zealand and I don't care what colour they are or what race they are from, I'd feel the same. In fact there are quite a few pakehas in prison, (and government come to think about it), who I do feel exactly the same about.<br />You state that people like me do not deal in reason. Really? Well, I'm not sure about me, because I can be a real hot head if I'm riled. But look at John and Mikes arguments/debates in any of your comment sections. All are calmly, reasonably, rationally stated arguments. Not once have they resorted to irrational or emotional statements. Nor have they been unreasonable or resorted to attacking you rather than the issue. I think you could learn a lot from both of them.Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-68340859403111250092012-06-05T13:09:51.035+12:002012-06-05T13:09:51.035+12:00Thank you Morgan. I do not claim to know better th...Thank you Morgan. I do not claim to know better than the highly qualified people you referred to. My question though was more to do with how exactly Maori governing principles and customary law operated during the inter-tribal wars of 1800 to 1842 when about 50,000 people were slaughtered?Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-58501272463588214442012-06-05T12:08:34.151+12:002012-06-05T12:08:34.151+12:00Is that good enough for you Brenda, or should I ci...Is that good enough for you Brenda, or should I cite someone as credible on these issues as John Ansell? How about I cite the National Front?Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-46091845767680537342012-06-05T12:02:15.274+12:002012-06-05T12:02:15.274+12:00Yes, I'd be interested to learn the same Mike....Yes, I'd be interested to learn the same Mike. Please tell us Morgan. Enlighten us. And of course you will be able to cite all your sources while you are at it.Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-2106371553356431482012-06-05T12:00:38.718+12:002012-06-05T12:00:38.718+12:00Of the assumptions about Maori society, one of the...Of the assumptions about Maori society, one of the most persistent is that because Maori society did not possess a western style legislature of judiciary, it did not possess law. Such a view meant that any Maori institutions used to maintain social order could be dismissed as merely expressions of lore… it became easy to also dismiss the philosophy or jurisprudence which underpinned Maori law. <br /><br />Maori did have a distinct set if conventionally approved means of ensuring acceptable behaviour – a code of law. A “body of… rules recognised by the community as binding”. Its bases, constructs and methods of application were naturally quite different from the… model of western jurisprudence. Yet the system was clear and defined and Maori knew which acts were unacceptable “hara” or crimes. <br /><br />----------<br /><br />That’s from Moana Jackson, the leading authority on Maori customary law, in his seminal and instructive paper “Criminality and the Exclusion of Maori”. The paper explores Maori customary law, in particular Maori criminal law, and examines how it operated before 1840. You can also read an excellent and accessible explanation from Justice Eddie Durie, one of New Zealand’s leading jurists, in “Custom Law”. Justice Joe Williams, widely tipped to be the next Chief Justice, has also written on Maori customary law. These are three of New Zealand’s leading legal minds and all three acknowledge the existence of Maori customary law and explain its operation. Do you claim to know better than two High Court Judges and the leading academic authority on Maori law?Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-60314189666186921622012-06-05T11:17:08.607+12:002012-06-05T11:17:08.607+12:00Morgan, tell us how Maori governing principles and...Morgan, tell us how Maori governing principles and customary law operated between 1800 and 1842.Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-38295707187391762082012-06-05T10:37:13.628+12:002012-06-05T10:37:13.628+12:00What a sanctimonious load of rubbish, Brenda. From...What a sanctimonious load of rubbish, Brenda. From the above comments, Mike Butler clearly has little to no grasp of Maori and Maori history. You too, are on a similar level of stupidity... It's great to see. Maori had governing principles and an established system of customary law. Just because it did not look like a common law system, a civil law system or so on does not make it any less legitimate. You're also on tenuous ground where you infer that in comparison with English systems Maori would have not have thought their own systems so attractive. Can you cite a source or otherwise justify such an inference? Of course you can't, you use it only as a means of justifying your pathetic prejudice. The best way to deal with you people is to attack because you don't deal is reason.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-74551617870300717112012-06-04T21:34:39.367+12:002012-06-04T21:34:39.367+12:00Morgan, when accusing other people of ignorance, y...Morgan, when accusing other people of ignorance, you ought to be very careful that yours is not showing. Do you know who Mike Butler is? Do you know all of his credentials? Do you know that he has been studying and writing about Maori since before you were born? He has more knowledge about Maori, the Treaty and NZ History in his little finger than you are ever likely to know. Do you really think Mike doesn't know about things like tapu and utu? Maori may have lived by those principles back then, but they would not have thought of them as such noble sounding ideas as a governing concept or a system of law. They had no concept of such ideals. They were simply tools of survival.<br />Morgan, I can't help but notice that while comments by people such as Mike and John Ansell are calm and state clearly their arguments without resorting to abuse or name calling, that you resort to abusing them once you run out of arguments yourself, and then you either ban them or refuse to publish their comments. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I wonder what other readers make of your apparent lack of enough knowledge to debate an issue without resorting to abuse or hiding behind censorship? I will be very interested to see if this comment gets published or not!Brendahttp://www.blackcatsramblings.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-13508494766478216302012-06-04T09:01:46.493+12:002012-06-04T09:01:46.493+12:00Your ignorance astounds me. Maori operated under t...Your ignorance astounds me. Maori operated under their own system of law with governing concepts, to cite two examples, such as tapu (prohibition) and utu (reciprocity). Your ignorance of such subjects should really disqualify you from commenting. However, in a free society people can say whatever they want - even people who cannot even get basic facts right like yourself. That extends to people playing silly buggers and saying that they want to drive some white farmers off their land. The key things is, that talk was never followed through with, let alone a serious comment, and the Judge found no reason to give it weight in sentencing which indicates that it was not a serious or credible threat.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-64000943689963479302012-06-04T07:43:14.651+12:002012-06-04T07:43:14.651+12:00Morgan, I notice that you are listed as a law stud...Morgan, I notice that you are listed as a law student. Therefore, I assume you are training for life in law. You should be aware that in a society based on law, killing, stealing, and driving non-Maori farmers off their land is never OK. The chiefs who signed the treaty 172 years ago chose a system based on law because their old system of “might is right” was killing them. Your comments indicate that you think in some circumstances, killing, stealing, and driving non-Maori farmers off their land is OK.Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-2109035171449744062012-05-31T17:40:34.519+12:002012-05-31T17:40:34.519+12:00I'm saying that your interpretation of events ...I'm saying that your interpretation of events is one-dimensional and you have clearly gleaned your understanding from news reports and the like. I suggest you read the judgments of the Courts, consider the alternative arguments and then come back here with your perspective. I'm not interested in a debate with someone who clearly has little grasp of the case.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-29965113130100189692012-05-31T17:16:53.322+12:002012-05-31T17:16:53.322+12:00So you are saying that at some times it is OK for ...So you are saying that at some times it is OK for someone to say that he wanted to kill a few whites to get used to killing.Mike Butlerhttp://www.mikebutler.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8687643215117543088.post-41017976151389097652012-05-31T16:43:02.478+12:002012-05-31T16:43:02.478+12:00You're wrong. All evidence was permitted in th...You're wrong. All evidence was permitted in the trial of the Urewera four. The Supreme Court ruled that the evidence was obtained illegally, but it was in the "significant public interest" that it were ruled permissible in the case of the four. As such, the Crown, Justice Hansen and the jury had access to all the information yet could still not rule on the criminal group charge. The 'evidence' the Police obtained was clearly not as persuasive in the face of the defence's case. <br /><br />You cannot comment on the intention of one of the suspects to kill a few Pakeha without viewing that evidence in context it is meaningless. Was it said on the piss as a throwaway statement, or was it said, for example, a strategy session. Context is everything and without statements are often misleading or meaningless.Morgan Godferyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151402259122819244noreply@blogger.com