As the Ratana Church continues to decline Maori politicians are now turning to Destiny Church it seems. From 3 News:
Leading Maori political figures, including maverick Mana Party leader Hone Harawira, will take to the stage in Auckland this weekend as part of Destiny Church’s annual conference.
As well as Mr Harawira, Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples, Labour MP Shane Jones and National associate spokesperson on Maori Affairs Georgina te Heuheu will also speak. The forum has been set up at the bequest of Destiny leader Bishop Brian Tamaki
Politically speaking, this is a mixed move by Harawira, Sharples, Jones and Te Heu Heu. Destiny is comprised of over ten thousand members – in other words over ten thousand votes – however Destiny Church is political poison. Consider this from Wikipedia:
On his website "New Zealand: A Nation Under Siege" Tamaki has declared the government of New Zealand to be "inherently evil", pointing out that some members of Parliament chose not to swear on the Bible, and one (Ashraf Choudhary) swore on the Qur'an, when being sworn in to government. In a later interview, Tamaki said Destiny was ready to wage war on "secular humanism, liberalism, relativism, pluralism", on "a Government gone evil", on the "modern-day witchcraft" of the media, and on the "radical homosexual agenda".
In my opinion, Harawira, Sharples, Jones and Te Heu Heu are, by appearing at the conference, casually endorsing the lunacy Destiny Church espouses. I cannot for the life of me figure out why any politicians would associate themselves with Destiny Church. To be realistic, Bishop Tamaki is not going to endorse Harawira, Sharples, Jones or Te Heu Heu. They’re too progressive (yes, compared to Destiny even a social conservative like Sharples is progressive). And the Church is not going to accept a non-Christian message either. However, the most significant drawback is that more liberal, sensible or moderate Maori will shy away from politicians who are in any way associated with Destiny Church and the fantasies they entertain. Any relationship, or perceived relationship, with Destiny Church does more harm than good.
I am disappointed with Hone Harawira. He should not, as a matter of principle, be appearing before these fundamentalists. After all Hone perpetuates the notion that he is a principled politician. I guess it is a matter of definition. I read Destiny Church as a toxic ideological cult that actively encourages discrimination against Takatapui and, through a bigoted patriarchal system, encourages discrimination against Wahine. However, others, including Hone perhaps, see Destiny Church as a collection of vulnerable people, mainly Maori, surrounding a charismatic and prima facie wise leader who provides a sense of belonging and spiritual and psychological security.
The media will feed off of this story if Hone is seen to say or do anything that can be construed as endorsing Destiny’s views or encouraging their weirder tendencies. His best bet is to pull out. He will not win any votes nor endear himself in the eyes of his supporters (me included). It is a strange move on the part of Harawira, Sharples, Jones and Te Heu Heu. There is nothing in Destiny Church for them.
Yes Morgan I could not agree more.
ReplyDeleteNo one is further from a Hone supporter than me, I can assure you, but I respect Hones right to talk to whoever he wishes, but he is blowing smoke if he thinks the "bishops" supporters will endorse his leftist & hateful agenda. I can just see the "bishop" blessing McCarten, Minto, Bradford et al and exhorting his faithful to support the Harawira party..not!
It seems to be case of 2 x toxic ideological cults, eh!
Cheers
Lofty
Yes, Destiny is not to everyones tastes, but their members are entitled to hear the views of all politicians and hopefully have a free and frank debate on the issues. Getting a high number of voters together is good use of a politician's time and if it encourages people to get out and exercise their vote, then I'm all good with it.
ReplyDeleteI was also confused about this. By agreeing to speak there, each party gives the appearance of some credibility to destiny (that's certainly how tamaki will play it).
ReplyDeleteI hope Mana intend to use this as an opportunity to speak against the hateful messages of destiny, and to talk about the importance of mana wahine and mana takatāpui. Anything less will be trampling on the many women and takatāpui who have supported Mana so far.
Religious organisations operating under extreme fundamentalism have in many instances impinged negatively on individuals, families, communities and societies in general. Indoctrinating the vulnerable and unlearned in matters of religious tenets in order to progress their members to unquestionable conformity to their fundamentalist views. Hone will have a real challenge on his hands when he addresses this hard-core, conditioned audience of fervent worshippers. However, I hope Hone will stand true to his principalities, no doubt he will, and deliver them in a way void of religious fervour and rhetoric that are plain and easy to understand that may be appealing to individuals.
ReplyDeleteThe pollies wisdoms will be forced through the mincer of The Bishops vision.
ReplyDeleteWhy oh why and good luck to them...going up against Brian - on his homeground.
I agree the destiny cult are political poison any perception that mana are endorsing the destiny church and Brian tamaki and they will bleed the party votes of disgruntled maori party voters which would have gone to mana to the greens or labour.
ReplyDeleteThis is a terrible mistake for Hone. Don't go anywhere near Destiny's church. Don't do it, for Mana's sake.
ReplyDeleteMabey Hone was invited to speak at this conference. I see this as a good thing because he will be able to explain what the "Mana Party/movement" is about to parishoners which in my view the Mana Party and its values, encompasses many of the ten commandments in its values...
ReplyDeleteTo me it shows perhaps that the destiny church is waning. They tried to set up their own political party and failed, so now they set up a political forum. In two months that will be forgotten too.
ReplyDeletei agree with the above comment (in caps), none of them would have heard a word spoken by Tamaki but claim to know alot about him from what others have spoke of him, why should Hone worry about people who have the wrong perception of Tamaki, thats like enabling them with their self deception.
ReplyDeleteWHERES MY COMMENT DISCREDITING THIS BLOG? CENSORED! OF ALL THE PEOPLE... YOU FRAUD.
ReplyDeleteYour comment was removed because it was offensive. If you want to "discredit" this blog, do so arguing fact and using logic. Smears will not be accepted. Play the game and not the man.
ReplyDeleteGet a grip of yourself too.
The flock doesn't always listen to it sheppard.
ReplyDeleteObviously being on Destiny's home turf will make it a hard gig. However, it is a good chance for all the parties to spell out their policies to those gathered. You have to remember that all the parties tend to gather at Ratana every year (I am not comparing Tamaki to Ratana). The Destiny Church is the fundamentalist equivalent and if they have the initiative to organise this then all politicians invited should try to get there. At the same time, these politicians should stay true to their own belief's and not pander to the philosophies and world view of those at the meeting. Yes, they will have to submit themselves to sermons, prayers and animated interjections, but this shouldn't be a deterrent as Parliamentary behaviour is not always that flash either. I would also expect Maori politicians to go to a gathering of muslims, mormons and other religious groups that may have a Māori constituency.
ReplyDeleteDisclaimer: I do not consider myself to be a practising Christian and I have never met Brian Tamaki or attended any of his churches. Instead I am a politically interested, well educated, middle-aged Māori and want to encourage other Māori regardless of political viewpoints to engage in the political process.
I agree that destiny is poison to mana as are all of the christian denominations - IMO they are still colonising Maori belief systems and we are still letting them.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...@ June 1, 2011 12:39 AM
ReplyDelete"the Mana Party and its values, encompasses many of the ten commandments in its values"
This applys to the values of any other political party in this country.
Mana party applicable commandments? I shall have a wee look.
Is it #1? No other Gods? Perhaps not.
#2? Carved image?..mmmm maybe not this one either
#3? Not taking the Lords name in vain? Phew I don't think that it is this one.
#4? Remember the sabbath day? No sirree not this one, Communists don't recognise any of the above.
#5? Honour your Father & Mother...could be this one, Hone sure does what mum says.
Not sure about Matt, John etc, but they probably love their parents also.
#'s 6,7,8,9 You bet these fit the Mana party, also the tinfoil hat party, Nats, Labour, etc.
#10? You shall not covet others property...No way Jose, does this one fit the Mana party.
50% probably = many, same as any rational thinking party & person.
Just a thought Morgan thats all.
Cheers
Lofty
Its a waste of political time and will alienate many on the left from supporting Mana. I think the average Maori voter does not want a fundamentalist personality cult involved in politics....lay down with dogs & you get fleas. If you take the time to analyse the 'christian' right vote since 2005 it has steadily declined, so its makes no sense politically for Mana to participate. All their participation will do it aid the ego of a cult leader who the electorate has already discarded.
ReplyDelete" In the 2005 and 2008 elections, where the Destiny Party (and later the Family Party with Destiny’s express endorsement) failed to come close to success, due largely to a lack of internal cohesion. Destiny has failed to demonstrate — even at the height of its profile five years ago, under a government largely hostile to it — that it could mobilise a meaningful number of votes....
ReplyDelete"The second, and by far the more important reason, is the abhorrent nature of the policies and principles Destiny stands for — crude Daddy State authoritarian Christian conservatism with a brownish tinge; illiberal, intolerant, homophobic and misogynistic, quite opposed to where Aotearoa is heading. And that’s to say nothing of the corruption and appalling social dysfunction endemic to the evangelical cults of which Destiny is an example. " http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/10/the-perils-of-the-dark-side/
I seem to view of theme of hate politics here. The hatred seems to go in both directions and I would dare to suggest that it is unhealthy. Attending this hui does not mean that Hone, Pita, etc. condone or endorse the Destiny message and nor does it mean that any party will be endorsed by Tamaki or his church. In a democratic society such as ours, it is important that debates and exchanging views take place. Not everyone will be on the same page but at least they will have clearer views about what makes others tick. Remember whoever is elected represents the entire electorate, not just those that elected them. As for the commenter who said that Māori beliefs are being colonised by Christianity, well sorry that happenned back in the early 19th century. It is so well ingrained into our tikanga now, it is hard to go to any Māori event now without christian practices being followed.
ReplyDeleteMorgan, you might be interested to read the rather similar arguments I made in October last year when Pita Sharples was announced as the keynote at the Destiny conference:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kiwipolitico.com/2010/10/the-perils-of-the-dark-side/
Cheers,
L
@ Lilz the only hate politics is the hate that the destiny church ferments and spreads against the Takaatapui / GLBT community
ReplyDeleteYeh i kind of agree. Back in the day, Tariana spoke at the ACT conference and now, they are in a coalition of sorts. Would that mean, Hone speaks at the Destiny conference and before we know it, Bishop Tamaki is offering spiritual advice on national issues? Destiny do have a stage and most politicians do stand at every opportunity to promote their kaupapa but yeh...a tough one...
ReplyDeleteLilz, I totally agree with Ana.
ReplyDeleteEach of the parties that attend the hui without actively speaking against homophobia are giving a message to destiny (it's okay to preach bigotry as long as you've got enough members who might vote for us), and they're sending a message to takatāpui, GLBT, etc (we don't care. We will not risk votes to stand with you).
Of course, this is what we're used to. Sadly, Māori (like most) politicians tend to side with the powerful. It's shit, and we should be able to expect better.
Hone & Te Mana cant have it both ways, purport to be a party of the liberal left then saddle up with bigoted crackpots from the right like Tamaki . I agree with Kim that socially conservative Maori all to often write off the vote & the interests takatāpui, GLBT, but if you take time to analyse the numbers the vote for the Christian right is in decline in NZ and had been since 2005 So the real effect of any support from destiny would be minimal & would end up damaging and alienating any support from the left. Is this a price Hone & Te Mana are willing to pay. If so then Mana are just the Maori party 2.0 using the rhetoric from the progressive left but in action are still shoring up and supporting repressive Maori social conservatism of which Tamaki is the worst example.
ReplyDeleteka kite Ratana,kia ora destiny,is this a joke,check the census numbers we are over 50.000 strong and coming up to 100 years old..ka kite i dont think so...
ReplyDeleteI'm proud to have been baptised Ratana.
ReplyDeleteBut those 10 000 Destiny votes. Are they all eligible voters or do they include the kids as well ?
BTW haven't you got Te Heu Heu mixed up with Big Toe Henare ?
I dislike the association of Ratana to Destiny. I acknowledge the Ratana Movement for not being overly politicised as merely trying to ensure its own internals are being held accountable to its members.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the comment when Destiny is around in 100 years time which Ratana will be celebrating its centenarary on Nov 2018....then I will be impressed.
Ratana = 50,000 members today..
ReplyDeletemhmm.. the Ratana movement is crumbling. When TWR passed away in 1939, the number of members was 40,000. And between 1939 and 2009, there's only been a growth of say just over 10,000 members within a 70year period. When TWR passed away, the church and movement needed a strong leader to continue membership growth. No doubt if there was a strong leader in place, the membership of Ratana would be around 200,000-300,000 by now.. and then compare that to Destiny's 10,000. Obviously, there would be no doubt that Ratana would still hold prevalence in numbers. Especially if the leadership put into practice the kotahitanga of bloc voting.
Just so you all know that the Ratana church is stronger today than it ever was particularly when all Morehu get to understand and realise the legacy left to us and all Maori by TWRatana then will that light shine strongly in those hearts. Understand the kaupapa is physical / spiritual so a balance has to be maintained. Politics is just a part of its makeup. With regards to Hone Harawira he can only be the most frightening polititian to those people who have not been walking a path of truth; so it does'nt matter which forum he appears in just remember that he is one person with his wife, mother and family who certainly "walk the talk"; with no humbug. Ratana prophesied that Maori will become stronger politically and Hone Harawira and his family are certainly leading the way in that regard....nga manaakitanga o Ihoa o nga Mano ma runga ia ratou me ia tatou i nga wa katoa....Kia kaha Kia maia Kia manawanui...Mauriora..!!
ReplyDelete