The Herald on Maori politics

An interesting piece from Claire Trevett in the Weekend Herald on the Maori Party and Hone Harawira:

Next week (the Maori Party) will meet to analyse that report (re the non-aggression pact). The agreement's demise is inevitable - not least because it is abundantly clear that while Harawira might not want the party to stand against him, he and his supporters certainly want to be able to stand against the Maori Party MPs.

As I have said, a Maori Party candidate in Te Tai Tokerau (TTT) will not dent Harawira’s support nor push the seat towards Labour. By my reckoning Hone’s base is comprised of around forty percent of TTT electors. In the wake of the expulsion saga I think he managed to solidify that base.

Hone enjoys a sixty two percent majority. I can think of no reason why that figure would decrease – even in a three way race. TTT is a Hone Harawira seat, not a Maori Party seat. Hone benefits from his record as an excellent electorate MP, he benefits from his reputation as an uncompromising Maori advocate and he benefits from his reputation as a genuine good bastard. Hone also maintains an excellent parliamentary record. He voted, for the most part, in principle, for example against the unfair tax switch and the inadequate MCA act, and he smashed tobacco companies and managed to convince a Tory government to increase taxes on tobacco products. Maori in TTT eat up Hone’s tino rangatiratanga rhetoric as well, for example “fiercely independent” iwi like Ngati Kahu. 

The Maori Party is expected to make its move on April 29 - the day before Harawira is to announce his party and new line-up. It will justify its decision by saying there was pressure from Maori Party supporters in Northland to give them someone to vote for.

So the Maori Party will announce whether they will stand a candidate against Harawira this Friday. This will be the Maori Party’s death sentence. Standing a candidate against Hone is utterly illogical. I do not know what the Maori Party expect to achieve. I do not believe that there is much pressure coming from the one or two remaining Maori Party supporters in TTT. I think the Maori Party is erecting a façade, and a pathetic one at that. This is not about placating one or two noisy Maori Party supporters in TTT, it is about destroying Hone as a means of self preservation. Maori will not and can not sustain two Maori Parties – something has to give. One has to be destroyed or one needs to take a broader approach i.e. look beyond Maori voters. Hone also represents a tangible and operating threat – he is pulling Maori Party supporters and will continue to do so (assuming ceteris paribus).

Claire continues:

In Te Tai Tokerau, that will undoubtedly result in a vote split between the Maori Party and Harawira.
The result could well be that Labour's candidate Kelvin Davis, who awaits this scenario with some glee, sweeps through the middle and takes the prize.

This is where she loses herself. Conventional wisdom would dictate that a third party candidate would push the seat towards the dissimilar candidate, read Kelvin Davis. This would perhaps be the case in a general electorate, but the Maori electorates are vastly different in terms of character. Different values are at play, different motivations, the issues are not generic, party ties are secondary, the differences between candidates are often cosmetic, the electorates encompass a huge area and, ultimately, voting is not a wholly rational exercise. For example some Maori will vote according to whakapapa. This wouldn’t occur in a general electorate. What I am trying to get at is that you cannot apply conventional understanding to what appears to be, on the surface at least, a simple political question. The Maori electorates are unpredictable and unusual.

If Davis wins the seat, Harawira does not. That may well be a sacrifice the Maori Party is willing to make - it is Harawira rather than Labour which is most corrosive to it.

A Harawira party without Harawira in Parliament is a far less dangerous prospect and if self-preservation means losing a limb, it may well be worth it.

Correct.

It is hard to gauge support levels for Harawira, beyond his own possibly inflated claims and one Native Affairs-Baseline poll in March in which about one-third of Maori voters said they would support him. 

Anecdotally speaking, there is a shitload of support for Hone Harawira in Waiariki and in Wellington. A terribly unscientific facebook poll on tangatawhenua.com’s page asking who you would vote for had a Harawira party on 152 votes and the Maori Party on 39 votes.

Previous Maori polls even close to an election have not reflected the result. Harawira has strong support in his own electorate, but it is yet to be seen how much of this was because of his Maori Party backing. 

As aforementioned, Harawira’s support is not a result of the Maori Party - TTT is a Harawira seat not a Maori Party seat. 

But in the Maori seats, it is Labour voters who decide who wins. Last election Labour maintained its stranglehold on the party vote in the Maori seats, with about 50 per cent.

True, to a certain extent. Maori vote for Labour out of habit and as a strategic move. Maori do not vote Labour because they believe in the principles of social democracy, or approve of Labours record on Maori issues, or because they’re “Labour people”. The vast majority of Maori have no idea what the hell is going on and vote Labour because it is an ingrained action. Those Maori that do know what is going on vote Labour because a centre left government is in the best interests of Maori. A party vote for the Maori Party is a wasted vote. Maori can have the best of both worlds if they vote Maori on one level and Labour on the next.

Phil Goff's decision to rule out working with Harawira in a government may be enough to staunch any significant flow of the Labour/Maori Party split vote to Harawira.

Maori do not think like this. Whether or not Hone is in government is inconsequential.

(The Maori Party) is still polling at about its 2008 level. But this time, the stars are in alignment. This election year, Labour is struggling in the polls leaving its votes ripe for the picking by another party with left wing policies

Dissatisfied Labour voters will naturally move to Hone. The Maori Party has vacated the left and now occupies the centre right while Hone is moving left. It would take a pretty significant ideological shift for Labour voters to move towards the Maori Party. Why would Labour voters support a party that props up a National government?

Add to this the increased mana that comes with the ministerial positions held by Pita Sharples and Tariana Turia, and a significant lift in the party vote could be achieved if the Maori Party works for it.

This counts for nothing when that mana has not been utilised appropriately i.e. it was used to pass the MCA act among other transgressions. Mana comes with qualifications, it is not a virue in itself.

The party is not blind to this opportunity - but despite its term in government, it has not capitalised on its influence by strong fundraising among wealthier iwi and businesses, many of whom must be watching with some unease the prospect of Harawira unseating the Maori Party.

This is interesting. I would have assumed that financial support from some iwi would be a given. If iwi do not support the Maori Party after having received a number of sops, including the ETS, then they are incredibly ungrateful.

Names of potential candidates are emerging - including Mereana Pitman in Ikaroa-Rawhiti, where the battle could be wide open if Parekura Horomia does not stand again.

Former Maori Party stalwart Angeline Greensill is also expected to stand for Harawira in the Waikato-Tainui seat after missing Maori Party selection for the third year running.

Both Mereana Pitman and Angeline Greensill are strong candidates. I think both are members of Te Whaainga Wahine, an emerging organisation of wahine Maori and a Maori political force of the future, and both enjoy huge respect in their respective rohe. Angeline Greensill has come close in Hauraki-Waikato and is a strong opponent of the corrupt Tuku Morgan and Te Arataura. Mereana Pitman is from the protest generation and enjoys a national reputation. I do not think Greensill would win Hauraki Waikato, but Pitman has a chance if, as Claire says, Parekura steps down. Mereana Pitman is a Hone Harawira like figure, without the rough edges and the aggressive demeanour. She is respected as a Maori advocate, someone who has done the mahi on the ground, and is, by all accounts, an intelligent woman. She is untested as a politician though.

Overall, an excellent piece from Claire Trevett. I’m looking forward to Harawira’s launch this weekend. I will blog on the launch and any interesting aspects next week, hopefully.  

The Mana Party... Coming soon

Hone Harawira appears set to announce the formation of a new party at the end of the month. The Mana Party should be announced following a final hui on April 30. Readers will know I have been predicting and advocating a broad left wing party as opposed to an alternative Maori party. However, it appears Hone will deliver the latter.

As you can probably imagine, I think this is a strategic mistake. I will qualify that statement by saying good on Hone. Maori want a new kaupapa Maori party and he is delivering one. In this post I want to quote, at length, my thoughts on the issue from March 12:

Hone has announced that any new party he forms will be Maori focussed. I do not think this necessarily precludes the possibility that the party will be broadly left wing. Certainly tino rangatiratanga finds a natural ally in the left - the recognition of indigenous rights is almost the exclusive domain of the left in fact. Hone appreciates this. In this post I want to discuss why Hone Harawira must launch a broad left wing party rather than a single issue alternative Maori party.

If Hone were to form an alternative Maori party he must, in the interest of electoral success, destroy the current Maori Party. The numbers required to sustain both a left wing Maori party and a right wing Maori party do not exist. The Party vote for the current Maori Party is already exceedingly low and it is fair to assume that there is little potential to tap new and existing, yet inactive, voters. The Green Maori vote is also exceedingly low. The Labour Maori vote remains significant yet there are dangers in attempting to bite a piece off of the Labour Party. For the moment, Hone needs the Labour Party in terms of support in the House and around Parliament. Any new party Hone forms will also be ideologically tied to Labour. Now if Hone were to pursue the Labour Maori vote Labour could respond in kind and attempt to stymie Hone. Erect barriers in an attempt to protect their voter base. For example Labour, if threatened, could silence Hone in the House by refusing to offer him anymore speaking slots. Cut off his oxygen supply essentially. Hones best options is to target the politically inactive. The constituency exists and I firmly believe Hone, in cohort with Matt McCarten, is, or are, the people to finally reach out to that untapped market often called the underclass.  

Most people can list three or four political values and issues that mean a lot to them. The reality is that most people will not list flags on bridges, international treaties and customary rights near the top. The cost of living, wages and welfare will come out near the top of most lists, therefore it is crucial that Hone take a broader view. The current Maori Party continues to collect a considerable amount of criticism for the party’s perceived focus on symbolic wins as opposed to substantive wins. This should signal to Hone that a focus on Maori values such as the recognition of some rights is not enough to placate Maori. At the end of the day Maori, like everyone else, want to enjoy a higher standard of living, job security etc. And of course the underclass, I loathe the connotations of that word but it is the common designation we all understand, is not exclusively Maori. The underclass consists of the working poor, Pakeha beneficiaries and in many cases Pakeha pensioners. With this in mind it becomes clear that the pitch must be much wider. Although any new party Hone launches will not rely on the party vote, for the time being that is, if Hone wants to drag any new MP’s in with him he must ensure his messages, policies etc resonate with a wide audience.  

The political marketplace is already crammed and, as one commentator put it, an alternative Maori party will occupy a niche within a niche.

Most of this, in my mind at least, still holds true. I want to add a few more comments though.

Firstly, the Maori vote is volatile in one respect and solidified in another respect. What I mean by this is that on a candidate level the Maori vote tends to jump around while on a party level the vote is largely fixed with Labour. In terms of the party vote I think this comes down to habit – it’s a generational thing. Hone will struggle to change that. The Maori Party failed to convert a majority of Maori. Mana Motuhake also failed and so did the Greens.  

Secondly, Hone needs a moderating force. In my opinion he does whatever the last person told him to do. People like Annette Sykes will hardly exercise control over Hone’s more extreme tendencies. They will only reinforce what he believes.

I wish Hone success. I agree with much of what he says and does. But not enough people share my outlook on life. Not enough to make him a significant force.

Te reo Maori report

A report into the state of te reo Maori was released last week. The report calls for, among other things, funding to be redirected into projects encouraging whanau to speak Maori in the home and a dedicated te reo minister. Pita Sharples has expressed some concern regarding the level of government support the recommendations will receive.

Prima facie, this is a valid concern, however saving the Maori language is not a partisan issue. Most Maori cultural issues are, sadly, wedge issues. But te reo is not - in my opinion at least – the issue enjoys broad public support.

Between now and the election the government must keep Maori onside, especially Maori Party supporters. It is widely accepted that any post election arrangements will involve the Maori Party; therefore the government needs to ensure Maori Party supporters feel comfortable with the idea of a second term National government. To do this the government must build the perception, among Maori only, that the Maori Party is receiving substantial gains rather than casual sops. The government cannot risk offending or alienating the Maori Party parliamentary wing either. There is a problem in been seen to be placating the Maori Party. Firstly, because the party is the Maori, key word Maori, Party. Secondly, any further sops for pet projects or intangible cultural projects could be seen to be inconsistent with the austerity narrative the government is running. Look what happened with the plastic waka for instance. Hopefully, the Maori Party runs hard on this issue. In my eyes any success in this area is a redeeming factor for the Maori Party. Of course it is not wholly redeeming, but a positive step and one I would respect.       

On a side note, Pita Sharples is walking into a minor backlash following accusations that he attempted to gag members of Te Taura Whiri, the Maori Language Commission. Apparently Sharples directed, through a letter to the commission, that he would be the “point man” for the government response to the issue. This is concerning, but somewhat fair. Sharples is the minister and I understand he would want to keep tight control over how the report is presented to the public and the government. However, Te Taura Whiri is an independent statutory body entirely separate from the minister’s office. Sharples has no control over the commission and should not be issuing directives. It is constitutionally offensive. Te Taura Whiri has a right to comment and should, as the Maori language commission, comment. I disagree with some accusations that Sharples gagged the commission - that is an overstatement.

Pita Sharples is not the most effective politician in my opinion. Having said that, he doesn’t need to be. Saving te reo is in the government and the country’s interest.

Tariana Turia and abortion (updated)

Tariana Turia, in perhaps the most bizarre political episode of the week, tabled an amendment seeking to appoint a raving lunatic to the Abortion Supervisory Committee. Luckily the vote failed, but what is most concerning is this from Turia:

In addressing the House, Mrs Turia said the issue of abortion was central to family well-being. "The protection and preservation of whakapapa and genealogy is fundamental to the broken health of our whanau".

I do not think abortion undermines the notion of whakapapa. Cultural values are fluid and change over time in response to changing circumstances. Maori inhabit a vastly different world and the notion of whakapapa has not remained static. Turia is allowing a very narrow interpretation of whakapapa to inform her views on what is essentially a health issue.

"I think about the precious heartbeat of every child, and I think about the comment that Ngati Whatua leader Naida Glavish once made, that there is no such thing as an unwanted mokopuna."

This is true, but a distraction from the real issue. Abortion is about a woman’s right to chose. It is unwise to allow an emotive assertion to obscure objective judgement.

Turia is undoubtedly a social conservative. It worries me when I see Maori values advancing socially conservative policy. Maori were and are pragmatists. Just because we lost some aspects of our culture and struggle to maintain others does not mean we have to hold onto to what we still have with an iron grip. Values and ideas are meant to change.

Put a name to a face

I’ll be appearing on tonight’s episode of Native Affairs. I’ll be joining John Tamihere on the panel and we’ll be discussing the Labour Party, specifically the Darren Hughes controversy. The show begins at 8.30pm on Maori TV.

Will we see a new movement?

Hone Harawira is set to announce sometime this Sunday whether he will form a new party. The final decision rests with his Tai Tokerau electorate committee. From the NZ Herald:

"I sincerely hope that the Tai Tokerau, on Sunday, says 'go ahead, let's have the new party', because if Tai Tokerau says 'no, you're just going to be the MP for Tai Tokerau', then that's that (for forming a party)," Mr Harawira told Radio New Zealand.

I cannot profess any inside knowledge or special understanding in this case. I honestly do not know what way the committee is leaning. I would infer, from Hone’s rhetoric and the rhetoric of those close to him, that the go ahead will be granted. I imagine the committee will take into account the strong desire among Maori for a new “movement”. That desire is most intense in the north I should add. Hone’s aims must also be taken into account.

The committee must ask this. If Hone forms a new party will he be a less effective electorate MP. Will leading a party diminish his ability to serve his constituents. This consideration must be weighed against Hone’s own desires and the desires of his constituents. At this point, the desire seems to be to form a new movement.

I await the announcement and I’ll will blog, at some point, on the result and the implications.     

Further proof...

I have been predicting that Hone will form a left wing party as opposed to a new Maori party. Here is further support of that proposition. From Waatea News:

Independent MP Hone Harawira says he intends to honour his separation agreement with the Maori Party and not contest seats it holds.

“It’s looking like there is going to be a new party. It will be announced round about the middle of next month. I can’t say yet when the candidates will be announced. I can say that at this time it is not my intention to stand candidates in the Maori seats against the Maori Party members,” Mr Harawira says.

I think it is fair to assume that any new Maori party would need to contest the Maori seats if it were to have any relevancy as a “Maori” party. The Maori seats give a party mana, or a mandate perhaps, as representatives of Maori. Without even contesting the Maori seats you forego a base to work from and a source of, as I said, relevancy and mana.

Of course things may change but the signs seem to be pointing in positive directions. Hone must know that the only beneficiaries of a three way race in the Maori seats will be Labour.

While I’m on the subject of Hone I just want to briefly discuss this comment:

“I think the concern for Phil has to be that people don’t see him as a credible leader any more. But, I can work with Labour any day, whether Phil’s in charge or Shane’s in charge. As Parekura rightly said, him and I have worked many times on projects in the past and we could do so again. I can do it with any number of his colleagues, so I don’t see it as an issue. It is really just political opportunism on his part,” he says.

This is a well crafted statement and I guess it does show that Hone is receiving some sound advice. The comment touches on the well established theme that Goff is not a credible leader of the Labour Party and as such will probably not lead Labour to victory. Hone then goes on to reiterate that he can work with Labour and as a result he frames himself as the reasonable one. Notice also how Hone name drops Shane Jones as a potential leader. Of course this is unrealistic but it is fair to assume that Goff is aware of the narrative the Shane is, or was, a credible threat and the inevitable leader. It goes back to the theme that Goff is merely temporary. Hone then mentions Parekura, clearly referring to Parekura’s early rebuff of Goff re working with Hone. As a result Hone is highlighting the apparent disunity in Labour. Hone then brushes off the whole issue and calls Goff out as a political opportunist thus reinforcing the dominant narrative that Goff’s move was driven not by principle but opportunity.  

On Hone Harawira's new party (again)

We all know Hone Harawira is a Maori nationalist. However, as I have said on numerous occasions, this does not preclude the possibility that Hone will form a broad left wing party. Although tino rangatiratanga is not entirely compatible with the notions and values of social democracy, it is not impossible to reconcile the two. For a more in depth discussion on why I think Hone will form a broad left wing party, as opposed to an alternative Maori party, see this post.

In this post I want to draw your attention to comments made by Annette Sykes:

Rotorua Maori lawyer Annette Sykes says Pakeha should have a major part to play in any new political party set up dissident MP Home Harawira.

She says the Maori and Pakeha heros that have emerged during the Christchurch quake are indicative of a new New Zealand that any new Maori political movement must incorporate.

This indicates, to me at least, that Annette, and surely by extension Hone, realise that an alternative Maori party is impractical. Annette knows that the numbers do not exist to support the Maori Party, an alternative Maori party, the Greens and of course Labour. Any new party will need to broaden its appeal. Matt McCarten, one of Hone’s advisors, also knows that an alternative Maori party will not work and any new party will require some amount of working class appeal and a focus on beneficiaries, both Maori and Pakeha.

The only circumstance in which an alternative Maori party makes any political sense is if the end goal is to destroy the current Maori Party. I feel that this is unlikely. Having said that Annette has given a soft indication that she may run against Te Ururoa in Waiariki. If she does, and she has not ruled it out, then I think it is safe to assume the end goal is to destroy the Maori Party. This would be terribly unwise. For all of their sins the Maori Party occupies a brilliant strategic niche and, in likelihood, will be in an incredibly strong position post-election.

Hone must realise that destroying the Maori Party also opens the door for the Nat’s to launch a full frontal attack on all things Maori. At the moment the Maori Party is a moderating force on the Nats. The Nats know that they cannot attack things Maori without backlash from their most reliable long-term coalition partner. With Act on its last legs and Dunne looking shaky in Ohariu the Nats realise that the Maori Party is their best shot in terms of governing into the future, therefore the party must be kept on side.  

Ultimately, I think Hone will form a new left party rather than an alternative Maori party. Consider what Matt McCarten has this to say:

If there was a contest I think Tariana Turia and Hone would be the only ones left standing. I think it would be a tragedy for Maori.

Matt knows and would have informed Hone that the only benefactors of an alternative Maori Party will be Labour. In Hone were to stand candidates in the other Maori electorates then Labour would storm home. It would be an epic strategic blunder.

The animosity between Hone and his former colleagues should not be underestimated. But ultimately both sides need to realise that politics is bigger than their egos.

Hint, hint

From Hone Harawira;

I can announce that it is my intention to continue to serve the Tai Tokerau as an independent MP, and that I will contest the 2011 elections as either an independent or as a member of a new political movement in Aotearoa.

Interestingly, Hone indicates that he is open to joining or forming a new party. It is hard to know what to make of this. On the one hand you could speculate that Hone is sending a subtle message to the apparently numerous young activists who are calling for a new left party. However, on the other hand you could say Hone is just playing a sensible game. As a general rule you never rule anything out in politics. I tend to think Hone is declaring his availability as an anchor for a new left party. Not necessarily declaring his intention to actively form such a party, I think he intends that work to fall upon the young activists who are keen for a new left party.

What is also interesting about the above statement is that Hone rules out the possibility of seeking refuge with the Greens. Up until recently Hone has advocated for a strategic alliance between his former party and the Greens. However, Hone must realise he will not fit within the Greens’ new found eco-capitalist framework. Ultimately, Hone’s identity as a tino rangatiratanga advocate clashes with the Green’s identity as a middle class environmental party.

The statement continues;

It is also my intention to go back to my electorate and to supporters around the country over the next month to inform them of my intentions and to seek their support

It sounds as if Hone has already decided whether he will remain independent or form a new party. It appears that it is just a matter of seeking the endorsement of his supporters. Martyn Bradbury must be getting pretty excited.   

In terms of the election itself, I have advised the leadership of the party that it is not my intention to contest any of the other Maori seats in 2011, and I understand that the Maori Party has agreed not to stand a candidate against me in 2011 either.

So Hone is ruling out forming an alternative Maori Party, however, not a new left wing party. Remember a new left party would use Te Tai Tokerau as their MMP anchor, therefore contesting other electorates is merely a waste of resources.

To conclude, Hone has indicated, quite expressly, he may contest the election as a member of a “new political movement”, i.e. a new left party. This will give hope to the likes of Martyn Bradbury. However, one must exercise cautious optimism. As Chris Trotter points out here and here, forming a new party is far, far easier said than done.  

On Hone Harawira forming a new party

Some left wing commentators, namely Martyn Bradbury, are pushing the idea that Hone Harawira should, whether he is expelled or not, form a new left wing party. I see a number of problems with this idea.

Every party has a recognised identity. The question is will Hone, as a Maori nationalist, fit within the identity of a far left party comprised of rejected social democrats? Will he fit within a party that’s stands for certain political values above and beyond tino rangatiratanga? With this in mind it is conceivable that stern tensions will exist, and at some point erupt, over the policy priorities and direction of the party. Willie Jackson makes the point that Maori interests “might not always fall within a left wing paradigm”. The left is not always automatically analogous with Maori interests. Essentially, I do not think Hone is flexible enough in his ideology to accept working within the framework of a far left party nor sufficiently interested in responding to the needs of the constituents of the far left.   

It is probably also worth considering the personalities involved. Matt McCarten and Hone Harawira are the two strongest personalities in politics, no doubt about that. Although Matt is incredibly principled he is a pragmatist first. He knows the importance of electoral success. On the other hand Hone is principled first and pragmatic second. What happens when Matt’s pragmatism clashes with Hone’s principles? A party meltdown in my opinion. Hone will no longer compromise his principles for short term electoral or governmental success whereas Matt knows the importance of winning at any cost. Matt is a realist and values power. Hone is an idealist who values tino rangatiratanga. Such a clash of values will hardly breed stability.

Marty Mars and Willie Jackson have floated the idea of Hone forming an alternative Maori Party. An alternative Maori party will have to convince Maori that they, unlike the original Maori Party, will not sacrifice Maori interests for short term gain in government (i.e. they will not swallow National’s poison), therefore they are ultimately better representatives of Maori interests.

The problem with an alternative Maori party is that it will have no resources. Let’s be honest, Hone’s supporters hardly have deep pockets. It is also unknown how many rank and file members would jump waka. Enough to constitute a registered party (I think 500 members are required)? Without competent and experienced managers the formation of a new party is a logistical nightmare. Under a new left party the ground work can be left to Matt McCarten but under a new Maori party who would Hone delegate too? Furthermore, where will advisors and administrators come from and who would be willing to stand for such a party?

I think I would prefer to see Hone Harawira stand as an independent for now. It is too late in the piece to go pulling political parties out of your arse. As an independent Hone could create a strong narrative. Portraying himself as a man of integrity, alienated for speaking truth to power, denouncing, as Gordon Campbell put it, the brown sell outs in Cabinet. Against this the MP have no effective counter narrative. However, if Hone were to form a new left party or new Maori party the current Maori Party could taint him as a prostitute to politicians of yesteryear or a trouble maker with only conflict on his mind.

So there are problems with Hone hitching it with a new left party or pitching into a new Maori party. Either way Hone does not have many favourable options on the table. Perhaps his best choice is to stand as an independent. To be honest I wouldn’t know. This is all speculation. I'm just hoping for resolution and hopefully that resolution will not involve expulsion.